Photographing the Rural: Imaging & Engaging Community with Xavier Tavera (5 Plain Questions)

This episode was produced in partnership with 5 Plain Questions and Eleven Warrior Arts. Hosted by Joe Williams, 5 Plain Questions is a podcast that proposes 5 general questions to Native American and Indigenous artists, creators, musicians, writers, movers and shakers, and culture bearers.

In this episode, Xavier Tavera brings his unique perspective as a Minnesota-based photographer and cultural storyteller. In this engaging conversation, he reflects on the evolving nature of storytelling and representation in his work, emphasizing the importance of listening and understanding the narratives of marginalized communities in the context of his current and future projects.

Xavier shares insights from his photography projects, including his work with Latino populations in rural Minnesota, and discusses the significance of reciprocity in artmaking & community. The discussion also delves into the contrasts between urban and rural art scenes, underscoring art's vital role in fostering community dynamics. As we navigate these complex times, Xavier offers thoughtful reflections on the responsibilities of artists to engage with diverse voices and histories.

Resources:

• Episode Transcript
• Episode Webpage
• Xavier Tavera's website
• Xavier Tavera on the High Visibility podcast (2022)
• 5 Plain Questions website

Subscribe to 5 Plain Questions wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Art of the Rural is honored to support 5 Plain Questions. We are grateful to individual donors across the country, the Ford Foundation, and Good Chaos for making these conversations possible. Learn more about our work and show your support at artoftherural.org

Chapters

• 1:39 Beginning a New Series: Art of the World
• 4:23 Navigating the Current Landscape
• 11:23 Evolving Perspectives on Storytelling
• 18:49 Exploring Cultural Narratives Through Art and Technology
• 25:18 Exploring Cultural Contexts in Art
• 29:31 The Artistic Journey: Challenges and Aspirations
• 41:31 Engaging with Rural Communities Through Art
• 44:38 Exploring Community Stories and Art

Transcript

Episode Introduction

Matthew Fluharty: Art of the Rural is honored to support Five Plain Questions. We are a collaborative organization that works to resource artists and culture bearers across the country. Together, we build relationships, change narratives, and bridge divides. Across the last 15 years, we've collaborated with individuals and communities from a range of cultural and geographic backgrounds to contribute towards a more equitable and healthy future for rural and Indian country.

We invite folks to check out some of our work. Our Rural-Urban Exchange strengthens intercultural networks through a locally focused creative leadership program. Our Spillway Initiative supports artists and culture bearers to cultivate relationships along the upper Mississippi River region. And our High Visibility Initiative creates podcasts, exhibitions, and publications that share nuanced and complex perspectives on contemporary life in rural Indiana. If folks would like to learn more about our work, please visit artoftherural.org.

Joe Williams: Hello, and welcome again to another episode of Five Plain Questions, a podcast that proposes five questions to Indigenous artists, creators, musicians, writers, movers and shakers, and culture bearers. People in the community that are doing great things for their communities. I'm Joe Williams, your host for this conversation.

My goal is to showcase these amazing people in our Indigenous communities from around the region and the country. This week we begin a multi part series in conjunction with Art of the Rural, an arts non profit organization that's based out of Rochester, Minnesota. Founded in 2010, Art of the Rural is a collaborative arts and culture non profit organization that works to resource artists and culture bearers across the country to build the field, change the narrative, and bridge divides.

I'm excited to bring to you conversations I'm having with artists and creatives that they've been working with, some of whom are former guests of this program. The first in this miniseries is a returning guest from Season 4, Xavier Tavera. As we introduced him in the podcast in 2023, he's a Minnesota based photographer, born and raised in Mexico City.

After moving to the United States, Xavier learned what it felt like to be part of a subculture, the immigrant community, subjected to alienation. Has transformed the focus of his photographs to share the lives of those who have been marginalized. His incredible images have offered insight into the diversity of numerous communities and given a voice to those who are often invisible.

Xavier has shown his work extensively with Twin Cities nationally and internationally. His work is part of the collections of the Minnesota Institute of Art, Minnesota Museum of American Art, Minnesota Historical Society, Minnesota Historical Center, Ramsey County Historical Society, and the Weisman Art Museum. He is the recipient of the McKnight Fellowship, Jerome Travel Award, State's Arts Board, and Brown Keyess Scholarship.

We sat down over Zoom in early November of 2024, just before the national elections. So the conversation starts out in anticipation of what the landscape is going to look like. With that said, let's jump into five more questions with Xavier Tavera.

Interview

Joe: Thank you so much for returning to the podcast and coming back like we had just had talked about a few moments ago. This is a new one for the podcast where former guests and old friends come back and we continue the conversation from before.

And I think. Our episode, this episode aired in April of last year, 2023. It's been about a little over a year and a half, I think, since we've sat down. But yeah, how have you been?

Xavier: I've been great. Thank you so much, Joe, for inviting me one more time to chat. It's always good conversations that I would do, is it through the podcast or in person. So I, I appreciate that. I've been good. I've been very good.

Joe: What have you been up to lately? The world is upside down right now, of course. For reference to listeners later down the road, there's a big election coming tomorrow.

We have no idea what's going to happen. Those who are listening know what happened. They have the advantage of us over us on this. But yeah, how are you navigating this space right now? This last year or so?

Xavier: Oh, it's been tough. It's been tough. Testing democracy in the United States to the fullest, right? Having all these questions about what is gonna happen? What line and what path this country is going to take I think is politically very important. And also around the world we have several wars going on, and it goes back to the same, to ego, well, egos, you have to have an ego.

The carelessness about each other, the careless notion that we have towards each other, and the amount of greed that there is. It reflects in this, right? Massive world events that are very worrisome. And of course, we as artists trying to do something with our art, try to put something out there that raises some questions and have conversations with people.

And that's the majority of us, that's what we, why we do our to. Learn a little bit about ourselves and about others and have conversations and that's probably something that we're not doing enough It's crazy, but at this point half of the country thinks that the other half is stupid and we don't want to talk to each other and that's problematic..

We might have different points of view. I have my points of view and I defend them and I think I'm right. And probably half of the time I'm not, but we are not sitting down and talking to other people that don't think the way that we do. We are in our own little world and don't have the time. Maybe if we have the time and if we have an ear, we could listen and somebody can listen to us, not to convince.

Somebody or we should be convinced just to, to hear about what other people that don't think like us think and go about their world and what's important for them. I think this world could be more civil and maybe less complicated if we have that time to sit down and have those conversations. Yeah, it is a complicated time.

Joe: It is. It is. I think to, to all that you've said, it's, we're also in a place where we do a lot of our expression through social media, where there's this veil between us and the rest of our community. And so a lot of people will end up saying things that I don't think they would ever say in front of other people.

And they take positions and they build off those things, or they enter their echo chambers and just spin and ruminate these ideas that, that I think among regular conversation they would sort themselves out. That's not where we are.

Xavier: No, we're screaming into our devices. And expecting no answer with this urgency for people to hear our point and our point only.

And our activism is getting dwarfed into liking or not liking somebody's comment, instead of conversing, all of us have so much in common. But maybe we don't want to see it because we are so entangled. In these new ways of communicating that are not the most fruitful.

Joe: The great thing about these conversations that we have on this podcast a lot of times. Some of the decisions that went into creating this podcast was that initially the visual portion was removed in the presentation. It was not, it currently still is an audio podcast, but the intent was for the listener to be able to just tune in on the voice of this, of the guest and to try to relate to the individual just by listening, by taking time and relating to the experiences, the fears, the hopes of the guest and, we- both on the previous job and the people I work with now -we appreciate the time that the guests take to sit down and share their thoughts with us. As much courage as it takes these days to be able to share oneself to an audience.

Xavier: So it's amazing. It's amazing that all of a sudden, we are, we communicate a certain way as visual artists, and all of a sudden. And not having the visual it forces us to think and to attempt to be a little articulate and explain other points of view that might resemble our visual art. .

Joe: Let's jump into these new questions that I have. And yeah, we'll just take it from there. How, this one's going to cover evolving perspectives. Speaking of which, how have your experiences and perspectives on storytelling and representation evolved since your career began with photography and film? And are there any sort of specific milestones that influenced this growth?

Xavier: It is always evolving and I'm always trying new things. And I think that the milestones will be the ones that are experienced. Meaning when I did my veterans project, that project taught me a lot, taught me a lot about communication, taught me a lot about asking the right questions to these folks. It taught me to listen. It taught me to pay attention to certain aspects of their lives.

And in this specific one, the veterans, it was quite rewarding because most veterans will not disclose to their immediate family what they went through when they were in service. And me, somebody from the street they have nothing to shelter me from and they will disclose intricate stories, very personal, very intimate stories that wouldn't disclose to their close loved ones.

And I feel enormously privileged about that. The same stories that I'm seeking are teaching me how to move forward and always trying different things. My work tends to be a little political, but I'm also trying to change it. It's still political - I think all work is political, but not overtly political.

In two days, I'm traveling to Chile. to hear the stories of lighthouse keepers. And they have very interesting lives. And I want to hear precisely from them, what is this notion of solitude? And how are they built in order to withstand three to five months in the street of Magillan in a lighthouse by themselves?

Right now, in contemporary times, we can't be with ourselves. We are waiting for the bus, and it's going to be three minutes. We're going to pull out our device to be entertained or distracted. And in the 60s, 70s, 80s, these men had books and have had a radio to communicate with the outside world, not the outside world because they were outside with the rest of the world.

So I want to talk to them, these 80-something-year-old men that spend their lives frequently in remote areas. And thinking and knowing themselves better than anyone, and we're not allowing ourselves to do that anymore. So every, I don't know, I don't know, to your question. That specific project is going to teach me an enormous amount.

Yes, the outcome is going to be. Some photos of the lighthouses, portraits of them, but the amount of learning that I need to do is enormous. And probably with that to tell a fair and accurate story to, to, to the viewer it keeps evolving. It keeps evolving. And now I do some filmmaking and I do photography, still photography.

And I still believe that I'm giving half ass. When I put these portraits with these photos with these still images out we're missing. I'm missing a lot. I'm missing all the conversations that I have with people. If it was cold, if it was hot, what did it smell? If the rooms that I'm in with these people are welcoming, if there's tension in the air, all that is, unfortunately, is for me to keep is very hard for me to tell the whole entire story, and that information that I know that is missing trying to do the best with each story that I take with each encounter that I have with different people.

Joe: Do you ever feel that there's an opportunity to go back and retell that story? If you have a way of accessing some of that information to be able to express it and tell that story in a different way.

Xavier: No, absolutely. So this week, this past week, I visited three classes, three different classes, two at the University of Minnesota, and the Minneapolis College of Art and Design. And actually a fourth one, I met with a group of photographers as well that wanted me to talk about my photography, and then I can, right there, we're seeing the images projected, and I can fill in with their questions, and with my narration of all the images. How... what was the experience?

And actually with a photographer, with a group of photographers that were telling me, are you writing or are you putting a big label on, on these images? And I'm not because the need for that rest of the story, I think it's important. I still don't know how to address it, but eventually, I will attempt to do something better. Yeah.

Joe: Given your ongoing exploration of cultural identity through your work, how do you think the next generation of artists can effectively capture and express their own cultural narratives?

Xavier: Oh, that's a complicated one. I can talk about myself and the issues that I have and the obstacles that I have with different institutions and galleries and museums and publications, right? To try to get this out. But I'm interested in the new technologies that are there. To tell these stories, some of them might seem a little too much. And we don't know what to do with these technologies, and I'm talking about AI and I'm talking about other ways to address some stories, but at the end of the day I rely on, on the most basic one that is the oral one and is the image one that we can tell stories by showing these different images and talking about them, and some of them are just an excuse to open lines of communication with other people.

I do not have the last word when I put something in the wall or when I project something. I hope I don't have the last word. And this is just a way of opening a conversation with other people that either want to know more or have questions about it or have their own stories to contribute to the stories that I'm trying to tell.

I don't know. I'm curious. I'm curious about what new generations are going to do, and what are they trying? And some of them are incredible. Some of them are very ingenious and very effective. Again, new technologies, new ways of communicating. Other than the regular social media that we were talking about. I think it's going to be interesting. It's going to be interesting that we think about how to, not just to tell them, but how to receive them and archive them and all that jazz.

Joe: So, thinking about some of your current projects that have been out there: Deported Veterans, Border Saints. What has been the feedback you've received from your audience on these projects?

Xavier: That’s a very important question. So I have right now about five different projects that are advancing and when I give these talks at the colleges or universities, right? I have my spiel. It's like this is what happened. This is what I encounter. These are the stories. This is the people that I want you to meet but the new ones I don't and I have right now a friend of mine purchased a designer coat, and the coat is made out of American flags.

And I had a lot of problems with the icon of the American flag. And when I get, I had I got to actually the project is currently going. Yesterday I photographed another portrait. We were asking people to take that long coat and pose. And usually there are people that have strong personalities and they are wearing something that is traditional for their culture.

Yesterday I photographed an Aztec dancer and the shoot took somewhere around 20 minutes. But the conversation before and after, lasted two, three hours. And I am very clumsy when I was showing this, this specific work that is very new to students. I was apologizing because I was being very clumsy about it. And they have a lot of questions about where was I, how was I seeking out the people, and who was contributing to the project and all of that.

Joe: Yeah, in my experience doing exhibitions in the past there were, and even with this podcast I have been able to identify different audiences that have either come to the exhibitions or listen to this podcast and how has your work resonated with folks from within your community that have seen your work not as opposed, but then also folks from the general population that have experienced your work as well.

How have there been key differences in the perception of your work, and has it surprised you or does it confirm a few things?

Xavier: It informs a lot of things. There, there's a common knowledge in my community about certain things that I use. I use a fair amount of religious iconography and I know if I'm talking to somebody from my culture, they will immediately get that.

Or question that in an interesting way. And somebody from another culture, they will be more cautious about asking questions. Even if I'm very open all the time to be questioned about what I'm doing. And it is radically different.

Let me give you an example. I have an exhibition at the Minnesota Museum of American Art right now. And I have a triptych, and it's a sacred heart. I was born Catholic, but I had a lot of difficulties with the church. So at a very young age, I veered away from that. My mom is a Catholic. My father was a Mason. So there was a lot of information fitting my, my brain and my soul back then.

And I was always questioning those icons, but I liked them a lot. How crude and how sometimes violent in the Baroque period they have been. And when I show two sacred hearts I show them both man and a woman with all the regalia of the sacred heart. And there's a lot of signifiers that people might miss, right?

In one hand, there's the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And in the other hand is usually pointed to the heart. But in this case, the talent is not pointing to the heart, it's making a gang gesture with the hand. And a lot of people will miss that. It's that's a funny way to carry the hand.

And I had to explain one is the Latino culture. The other one is the gang street culture. The other one is, so there's many cultures that I tap into. And the majority of the people that are out of those cultures is I have no idea what that is. It just looks odd, right? It looks like something is off.

And that was the whole point of it, right? To show the East and the West as a means of colonization. The colonization was pushed from the East to the West with all this religious iconography. I'm making them aware of. That type of colonization through a religious icon. Some people will get it right away.

Some people will say no, I need more. I need more information and that's okay. I don't expect because it's coded and it's coded on purpose. I don't expect everybody to know that right away.

Joe: That must be exciting for her. For people who understand those things to see those images in your work.

Xavier: Completely. And it goes so many ways. I photograph a very good friend of mine. And she showed that portrait to her dad. She's Colombian. Her father is back in Colombia. And he was saying like that hand, I'm not sure about that. Cause, cause they're very Catholic, right? It's already, right away he got it. And he was questioning. He's Ooh, that might be problematic there. And so there was a little bit of tension amongst all of us. And that's the purpose also.

Joe: Can you share ... let's make it a little personal here. But would you be able to share maybe a particular challenging moment in your artistic journey and how you are able to overcome it? And did that have an influence on how you approach your craft since then?

Xavier: So there's a lot of, there's a lot of problems, right? And one of them will be access to representation of Latino and Native folks and Black folks, right? In institutions. That is one of the major challenges that are there right in front of us. I know you were asking about a personal, right, challenge in my practice, but to overcome a fair representation in institutions, right?

I think it's also important for us that all of a sudden we get tired of sitting in our studios and waiting for somebody to discover us or knocking in so many doors and having so many rejections, both within institutions and within grants and all that. It gets highly frustrating.

But at the end of the day, we really want to have communication with other cultures, with institutions and what not. And we keep trying and we keep trying with all that we have. And sometimes it works. And sometimes we get an opportunity and somebody will call us because they heard or saw our work somewhere and then they want to showcase it as well.

Personally, I avoid having those difficulties because I'm an anxious person, and I have to have somewhere around five different projects at the same time. And way 20 years ago, I used to have one and push it right with all everything that I can. And when that project wasn't getting traction, I will get super frustrated and super anxious.

So now if one of the five is not working, it's going to be okay because another one is going to have more traction and try to get ahead. And I'm going to push that like that. A lot of the lagging projects have been left behind and new ones have arise, but I have somehow fabricated a way right to, if one is not working, something else, so I can push my my I can push my, my, my intuition right to another one and have it flow. But it's everybody else, right? I can tell you the different aspects that different artists have my wife, Maria Cristina Tavera, she wants to tell me all her process.

And we sit down and I listen and I give my opinions and then see how those projects are advancing. And she comes to me and is tell me about what you're doing. And I'm like, I, I. I'm not, I'm going to tell you when it's done and it's no, I want to see them. Show me your computer. What are you working on right now?

I can show you, but I rather not because there's more questions that are going to arise when we converse. And I rather save those questions when the project is culminated. And they say here, what do you think about this? As opposed to, I'm going to do this with this process. And what do you think about that?

Cause it's going to be way more confusing. So I have learned, age makers do safety nets and safety filters in order to keep advancing. So that might be a couple of them to overcome some difficulties.

Joe: I feel like you just gave me a warning for my next question then. Do you have any aspirations of where your work would like to go?

Xavier: Yeah. So I, again, that's another very important question because how I work, there's always a sense of urgency, there's always a sense of like that I'm running out of time, and that I need to do things and a lot of times I don't think and process what I'm going to do or think or process where is this work going to go or where am I going to be professionally in the next three to five years.

That might be another one of those age filters that we were talking about, that I'm protecting myself. And, yes, I have aspirations to complete some publications, do a couple books, right? Complete some of the projects that I've been doing. I have aspirations if I have some solved opportunities, how can those opportunities helped me to finish some of the projects, but I think keeping going has helped me a lot. Maybe as I age I'm going to have wisdom of slowing and sitting down and saying, okay, what is happening here? Why are we doing this, and what is going to be the outcome? As for now I'm getting to the age, but I'm not getting to the wisdom part, right?

I'm still like urgently doing everything that I can. Let me give you an example. Right now I am on a sabbatical from Carleton College, the institution that I'm working for right now. And I propose one project and they accepted it. They gave me funding and I'm so happy, but that project has turned into three.

And I'm, and I'm thinking, I'm not sure. I am super privileged of getting a sabbatical, right? Most people go throughout their whole life, not getting this time for them. So I think that I have to take advantage with everything that I have. And I'm overdoing it. I've been traveling nonstop in two days.

I'm going to Chile to meet this lighthouse keepers. That was not included in my initial project. At the end of this year, I'm going to try to finalize a book that I'm doing with an academic from NYU. And that was not in the plans either. So everything just gets augmented more and more.

And I'm not sure if I know how to do it any other way. Pile it all up and try to sort it out as I go. And often I think it'll be good to just breathe a little bit, think and be more strategic, but I don't know. Hopefully that comes, hopefully I'm brave for that, that, that thing to enlighten me and I can do that in some years.

Joe: You've mentioned the upcoming trip and the upcoming project. What's on the horizon for you? Where can our audience find your work at?

Xavier: So right now there's an exhibition that I curated at the Minnesota Museum of American Art, 15 Latin artists and I included myself in it.

Again, because we were talking about representation, a lack of representation for our communities, and so that is going to be current all the way till January, so people can go and see that the museum is for free. I have a couple images in Rochester. There's a technical college over there and I have a couple pieces there.

For next year, I have a couple opportunities. One of them is going to be at Silverwood, and I'm going to have a solo show there reflecting about the park, and I'm very interested in that park because People of Color were never included since the 1920s. And now there's a lot of effort to include, and I'm not talking about artists: I'm talking about just the park goers. And now there's a lot of push to diversify that, that in a very interesting way. So to tell some of those stories through photography is going to be super interesting. And I have another opportunity. I've been adding year after year to this project about the border and I've been asked to show that in a museum, and I'm super excited about that opportunity - in that, actually, those two opportunities are going to happen in September. So I gotta work work in order to tell some of those stories in an accurate way.

Joe: If we could pivot just a little bit here, you've worked with Art of the Rural in the past. It emphasizes the importance of rural arts and culture in the broader context. How has, how did that experience or did that experience shape your understanding of community dynamics?

What insights did you gain about the role of arts in the rural spaces compared to urban environments?

Xavier: I believe that…I grew up in Mexico City. There's an enormous urban space, right? I'm very attracted to urban spaces. But since working for Art of the Rural, I've been paying attention. And a lot of the work that I do is actually outside the cities, outside in rural areas where art is very much needed. And conversations are very much needed, and acknowledgement of people there is very much needed.

In the past I've worked in Crookston, Minnesota. Now I'm working intensely since I'm working in Northfield, Minnesota with Carleton College. I've done a couple projects, and one of, actually I forgot to mention, one of them is currently going. I'm working with the Latino population in California, in Faribault, Minnesota, and I'm doing family portraits. And it's very interesting to dive deep into these communities and have a reciprocity there.

They want to be seen. They want to be acknowledged. Maybe I can be the vehicle for that. And of course, it's always uneven, right? I'm going to gain more, meaning I'm they're inviting me to their homes, to the little trailer homes, we call them las trailas. And I'm having conversations inside these spaces with them and it's incredible.

It's incredible. And like tapping into the history of how these communities arrived here and what are they up to and what are their struggles and how are they organized? They're incredibly organized. Just recently, they passed a legislation that will enable everybody to gain a driver's license.

And they were organizing and having workshops and having a lot of information for people to gain their licenses. And they talk to different police departments, right? People in Faribault sometimes work all the way here in Northfield. And they talk to the Northfield police. They talk to the Faribault police.

They talk to the Dundas police that they don't want to acknowledge any. They are, it's like it doesn't matter if we see a Brown person going back, we're going to stop them. This is where we're working and these are the difficulties. So to learn all that is so rewarding.

Again, I feel like I'm taking more than I'm giving. And it's important to not only write as an extractive way, going there and taking and doing something, but giving. So I'm talking, I'm not talking, but I'm going to give all this collection to the Faribault Historical Society as a statement.

We were here at this time, right? Have this, deal with this, archive this, and, I don't know. I don't know. I think I, as an urban person, the rural has been very important. All the time has been very important to me. Historically, migrant farm workers were some of the first Latino folks that came up here and how do they deal with different communities in this part of the world. I think it's important to know those stories, the resilient nature of those families. That actually planted the ground for a lot of us to come here, right? It is important. And I didn't acknowledge that I was just doing stuff in Minnesota, but knowing that difference, between the urban and the rural and what is happening there and what stories come out of there it happened because of Art of the Rural. Because I wasn't acknowledging this is a different sector of the community that needs attention. Hopefully I'm going to be another, be doing another project starting in January for next year in the West part of Minnesota.

And there's a community college there that is also asking me to go on to talk to the Latinos there. There's a fair amount of sugar beet harvesting and meat packing plants that attracts Latin population here. To go there and talk to them, document them, try to do a good representation of them is something that I seek now.

Joe: Your presence in the work you do, you're, on one hand you're preserving a moment of time and showing the work and the existence of these folks that are here that may not be captured otherwise. So you, I would argue that you are returning something very valuable. And it's. It's wonderful to hear that this work is happening.

Xavier: Thanks. Thanks for those words, because sometimes, I don't want to be the person who goes there, extracts and then gain something from that extraction. There's always the reciprocity is like, what can I offer? What can I give? And sometimes it's not so tangible, but you're right. Those stories in this time, specifically in this time, in 2024, 2025, right? What, what was happening here for people who might see these projects in 10, 20, 50 years, I think is going to be helpful.

Joe: I believe so too. Well, Xavier Thank you so much for coming back and sitting back down with me and having a conversation. Is there anything you would like to leave our listener before we sign off?

Xavier: First and foremost, thank you so much, Joe. Your perseverance in keeping these conversations open, and I know it's a lot of work. I know it's a, and it's an important task. And I thank you for that. I thank you for inviting me one more time to talk to you.

I always enjoy sitting down and also, reflecting on what I'm doing, and how can it be meaningful? And I don't know. Hopefully I can share more in these next years about what I'm doing, and how is it evolving, and how is it being considered in Minnesota.

Joe: We look forward to joining you on your journey and catching up and seeing what you're doing next. So thank you so much. Thank you.

Episode Outro

Joe: And that does it for this episode of Five Plain Questions. I want to thank Xavier again for his time and sharing his story with us, having the opportunity to sit back down and learn what's going on with them today. And his work with Art of the Rural has been a wonderful experience. He's always thoughtful. He's always so open and sharing what's going on. I enjoy every conversation that I have with Xavier. So Xavier, thank you so much for joining us.

Five Plain Questions is made possible with the support of Art of the Rural. Art of the Rural is a collaborative organization working to resource artists and culture bearers across the country, building relationships and changing narratives. To learn more about their work, visit artoftherural.org.

I want to thank you for joining us and spending your time listening to what I feel is a very important story and perspective from our community. Please join us next time as we speak with another incredible person.

I'm Joe Williams. You can find me on our Instagram page, on X, across social media. Just look for Five Plain Questions Podcast. You can also find us on the official Five Plain Questions website at elevenwarriorarts.com. There you'll find this episode and past episodes of this podcast. And if you have a suggestion for someone for me to interview, or your organization wants to support this podcast, please check out the webpage and message me. I'd really like to hear from you. That's it. You take care, and we will see you next time. This has been an Eleven Warrior Arts Production.